This article is a transcription of episode #9 of IDology - the Mindsailors industrial design podcast. You can watch the full episode on YouTube or listen to the audio version on Spotify , Apple Podcasts , or Google Podcasts .

In this episode, Voytek Hołysz - COO Mindsailors and Mikołaj Wiewióra - Senior Designer, discuss the famous TRL scale. A scale developed by NASA to describe the technology readiness level. This scale has been widely adopted in product development, although it does not apply to products themselves.

Wojciech Hołysz: It's a difficult topic. I mean, at least for me, the NASA TRL scale. We use it, many companies use it, many institutions use it. And maybe it's quite simple and has the original form, in a sense the original use, but when it got to a wider audience, it became a bit difficult. So maybe let's start with a simple summary. What was the TRL scale originally and what is it in practice, in a kind of industrial design branch today?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Okay, so from the very beginning, starting from NASA, the place where the TRL scale was created, it was used primarily for new technologies, for new, upcoming ideas that will be technologies used in the space industry.

Wojciech Hołysz: And what does this have to do with these new technologies? It helps to say at what stage of development this technology is.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, to what extent is this technology ready for use in space missions.

Wojciech Hołysz: TRL is actually an abbreviation for Technology Readiness Level.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, indeed.

Wojciech Hołysz: And as you said, it's about technologies, but we use them, and as I said, many other companies and public institutions use them to describe the stages of product development. So how does that translate into product development?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: And that's not the easy part. That's not the easiest part to describe because that's one of many frameworks that design studios use, and even companies that don't focus on design. I was thinking about that today. That's kind of an approach to how to describe an iterative process in a waterfall way. So, you know, developing technology requires some iterations. It requires prototyping, it requires development. It takes time to go from an idea, from a spark of an idea in someone's head to a finished technology or a product. So if you try to describe that iterative process loop in a waterfall way, you can use the TRL scale.

Wojciech Hołysz: Theoretically, like the agile way of working, the agile methodology is the opposite of the waterfall method. But here agility is described in terms of waterfall stages, in a sense?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: This is of course my interpretation. But I think it makes sense, because when you reach a milestone in the product development stage, you can say that it has reached a certain TRL level.

Wojciech Holysz: Yes.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Because if we're talking about ideas, then TRL one. So as it is said, basic principles.

Wojciech Hołysz: It's just a concept.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Just a concept. Some invention that sparks another idea in your head. This is readiness number one. So we only have an idea, and if we jump through the TRL scale, we get more and more developed ideas that translate into technologies and ultimately into products.

Wojciech Hołysz: So what's at the end of the scale? Number one is the first step, and the last step is?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: The last step is technology, because we're still talking about the basic definition of TRL, the last step, it's called the TRL number line. This is the actual system that's proven in space missions.

Wojciech Hołysz: So it's not a prototype. It's already been prototyped, tested and works. Is it a working, proven solution?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. But I think putting a prototype on this scale can be a bit misleading for now, because when we start thinking about space technologies, I think these products are one..

Wojciech Hołysz: One of a kind.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: One of a kind. So these are actually prototypes.

Wojciech Hołysz: Yes, because they are not prepared for mass production. Yes. Sure.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: But these are very well documented prototypes, they are very well developed. They are measured, they are in some way proven that in real life, in a real mission, they have to serve reliably for the entire duration of the mission. People are sure that this thing, this technology will work for them. So this is level nine.

Wojciech Hołysz: Before we go into each of the stages, what do you think was the initial need for such a scale beyond NASA's use? So why did institutions and companies dealing with industrial design, engineering companies, why did they rush to the scale and adapt it to product development?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Good question. I think the problem was a misunderstanding of what the design people were saying and what the clients understood.

Wojciech Hołysz: Okay. So is there a difference between the expectations of both sides?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Definitely yes. Because when we say prototype, I have several types of prototypes in mind. You can talk about prototypes in different ways.

Wojciech Hołysz: We talked with Anita about prototypes, about the fact that a prototype is one of those words, phrases, definitions that can be confusing, because people sometimes intuitively explain what a prototype is. And as you said, as a designer and engineer, you have several types of prototypes that you work with. And people outside the world of design or engineering think that a prototype, for example, is a master copy of a device and can be easily replicated in mass production.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. And that's why some institutions, including the European Union and National Centers for Research and Development, like in Poland, use this scale, because they tend to describe the level of product development on this scale. So it's a translation of understanding technological readiness into the level of product development readiness. And I think it's a good scale, thanks to which you can understand what type of prototype we're talking about. Because I think the TRL scale can only be used at the prototyping stages. It's not a scale that can be implemented for mass production of a product or production.

Wojciech Hołysz: After TRL 9 comes the production stage.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. Yes, definitely. Yes. Because you mentioned the master copy. It is usually described as the golden prototype of the sample. And this is one of the methods used when introducing something new to the manufacturer, to the seller, because you can say that you have a whole bunch of papers with drawings, with all the tolerances, surface finishes, these technological papers, how to make this part specifically, how to meet the standards that you have to meet or the needs of your product. But all these things are a bit confusing when you don't see the actual sample of the product. It can be confusing. Of course, there are companies that have a lot of experience in this field, so the drawing says more than anything, but preparing this drawing is very difficult, because you have to know that this language that you use in the drawing is understandable for both parties. And sometimes when the designer makes this drawing, he has something else in mind when he makes this drawing. And the one who reads this drawing still wants something more or less...

Wojciech Hołysz: It's a bit like reading emotions in emails.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, definitely. And when you have a color sample, a prototype that already looks like a product, you can say, I want something like this. But I want it to be produced in an efficient way that is economically satisfying for me. And my customers will eventually buy it.

Wojciech Hołysz: And this is described in these works, but this is what we are striving for.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes.

Wojciech Hołysz: If I understand correctly, this was probably incorporated into the world of product design and development to ensure that all parties to each project were on the same page and had a clear understanding of any unclear elements, processes, and other issues.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes.

Wojciech Hołysz: Okay. And you say that the scale is good. So let's review this, because this was intended for technology, not product. And you mentioned that the first level is: let's ignite a technology idea. Can this be written as a product idea?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. You could call it that way, or you could call it that way, I already have a lot of technologies or a lot of materials on the market, but I don't know what to do with them, and I have an idea to use ceramic material. Of course, this is a retrospective, because it is on the market, I just want our listeners to understand it with an example. So for a few decades, for example, watches were made of metal. And some time ago, one company and another came up with the idea to make a ceramic bracelet. So there was a ceramic material that was scratch-resistant. It is extremely scratch-resistant. It looks quite nice. So two factors that are really important in watches, especially in these high-quality and expensive watches. So they made a statement that it is possible or probable that ceramic can be used to make bracelets, but of course it was just an idea. How to do it, that's another topic. The idea was born at this stage of readiness, first of all, we have an idea that we put through several rounds of prototyping and testing, and then we develop it to the final version, for example a bracelet.

Wojciech Hołysz: Yeah. Okay. So at the very beginning we have this idea and once we come up with it, what is the process to get to the second stage? That would be the first step to take?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Actually, I probably combined the two because there's an idea. Step number two is the idea of how to combine it into something. So the idea of an application.

Wojciech Hołysz: Okay. In the case of technology that uses weight, first you have an idea and then you come up with an application for it. For example, you come up with some gadget and then you think, hey, I don't know, fishermen might want to use it. So that's the second stage?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. This is the second stage, because in order to further develop this technology, you need to have a target group. So you need to know who will benefit from your idea. So for example, the technology may have just been introduced, or it may be just an invention or a discovery, because it is not an invention, it is a discovery of a chemical element. So you have a chemical element that you do not know what to do with. But it has certain properties that are promising in a certain area of technology. So you try to focus on this element, how to apply it to your market that you want to cover.

Wojciech Hołysz: Or you just come up with a market that might find it useful. So it could be a chemical element, like in terms of technology and inventions of this type, when we talk about product development, it doesn't have to be an invention of something completely new, but for example a combination of certain things that brings a new effect to life.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Definitely yes. Because I think that innovation is not so common when you consider something really completely new. Unless the basic principles of science would not change, I think it is easy to invent or discover something.

Wojciech Hołysz: We have already discovered so much that further discoveries are well hidden

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. But we have a lot of room and a lot of room to improve in already established markets, because we learn from different markets, from different specializations, that ideas from one industry can sometimes be easily...

Wojciech Holysz: Difficulties.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: With difficulties, but applied in another industry and brought benefits to people, and people will benefit from these innovations. So sometimes innovation is simply combining one technology from the space industry, technology from materials science and creating, for example, nanoparticles that will be sprayed on the shower cabin. And you can freely proceed to cleaning.

Wojciech Hołysz: And you don't have to clean it anymore. Or at least rinse it with water.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Or at least making it easier. So it wouldn't have been possible without someone who thought, okay, we have this nanotechnology that's really amazing and it's helping people get to the moon or to Mars. It's helping with medicine, why can't we make this technology affordable and put it in a product that...

Wojciech Hołysz: Consumer products.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, it saves people time. And it's simple.

Wojciech Hołysz: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So after the initial spark and the idea of application, how to use this technology or invention of a solution, what's the next step?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: The next stage is proof of concept. So DTRL number three, ends with proof of concept. So you no longer have just an idea how to do it, but you can prove it with a device or a thing that is physical, but not only can be software, because we live in a digital age. So innovations are not only material, you can call it atoms and bits. And bits are also very important in our lives now. So these ideas can also be soft like software, but really helpful in our lives.

Wojciech Hołysz: So the proof of concept would no longer be just building the product, but simply making sure that the idea and the application that we have are possible or probable.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, you can understand it by putting all the different things that you think you need to build into the proof of concept. That's why prototyping platforms came into being. Like Arduino, like Lego, because Lego is also very important...

Wojciech Hołysz: This is a prototype platform.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, it's a prototyping platform, especially with Mindsailors today. But you also have these scripting languages like Python, it's even easier to learn these building blocks...

Wojciech Hołysz: Similarly to no-code solutions.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, no-code solutions, but you can easily prototype a concept that you think might work. And after that proof of concept, you know it will work. But it's just a general idea. It's not optimized because you're using components that are definitely not designed for mass production. And not even for small-scale production, because you spend a lot of time putting these little puzzles together into an idea that you think might work.

Wojciech Hołysz: I remember talking to Rafał from our embedded electronics team and he described what a proof of concept is for them. Even if the plan is to build a small electronic device, let's say a wearable device, a proof of concept can be a fairly large assembly of electronic parts and cables that are not connected at all neatly. It looks awful, it's not wearable at all, but it proves that it works, that the concept works, that these connected components will work as intended. And the rest of the process is to make it a small wearable device, but the proof of concept doesn't have to be the right size. It doesn't have to have the right power consumption, heat dissipation, or anything else. It's just a proof of basic concept, right?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. I think one of the best examples would be the touch screen. Because we are so used to touch screens that are embedded in our mobile phones, even our watches, all the different devices that are already around us, but the beginnings of touch screens were to put some kind of foil matrix on top of a large display. It was capricious. It was impossible for an ordinary person to think of this technology, that it could be implemented in this foil device. It took several years to develop this technology and it started with the idea of how to make the interface more user-friendly.

Wojciech Hołysz: And that's a good example of the difference, in my opinion, between technology readiness and product readiness. Because what you just mentioned was an example of technology. It wasn't like someone was thinking, how can I make a wristwatch with a touch sensor. They were just thinking about technology, like a touch screen or something like that. And that technology was being developed. It went its own TRL path before other people could probably think about products using that technology, and they started their own TRL loop.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: That's true. I think it's a good analogy that technology needs its own development path and product needs its own development path. When you reach the level line in TRL, you can look for this technology probably because in the early stages, I think up to number four, this technology doesn't come out of the lab because you have these ideas. So...

Wojciech Hołysz: Basically scientific.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, they are generally difficult scientifically. So these are things that require a special environment, because for example, nanoparticles, which I mentioned earlier, from different materials, but metal nanoparticles are highly flammable, for example. So you need a special environment so that they can conduct research.

Wojciech Hołysz: Yes, I will work on them.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Because if you do it at home, your house will probably burn down because you won't know these little details about material science and you'll blow yourself up.

Wojciech Hołysz: You have to remember that burning down a house is not on the TRL scale.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Absolutely. So when we move on to the product, once we have the technology established, well described and well developed, we can think about a product that uses that technology. So the touch screen is very popular now, but it took a long time and a lot of different stages of development to make these screens so thin and invisible, like a capacitive screen on a touch screen phone, that you don't just perceive it as, OK, it's...

Wojciech Hołysz: Something very obvious.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: It's obvious, but someone and several companies have spent a lot of money and time on developing this technology, which is why it is not visible.

Wojciech Hołysz: Yes, of course. You mentioned that in the original material sense, technology does not leave the laboratory until the fourth level. I mean after the fourth level. So we haven't talked about the fourth level yet. What would that be?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: This is proof of concept testing. You think it works, but now you have to do some testing procedure.

Wojciech Holysz: Okay.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Is it durable, for example?

Wojciech Hołysz: Does it work every time?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Does it work every time? Does it work over a longer period of time? Because sometimes when something works for an hour, we say, okay, it works. But what about if you have to run your car as a racing team, for 24 hours without any problems? It's hard to measure that without actually running that distance in that time.

Wojciech Hołysz: Or on the other hand, when you have a space mission, sometimes it takes months, years, even decades for a satellite to fly anywhere. And whatever you put on it has to work continuously for years or more.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. So you have to prepare some test procedure. Sometimes you can't test whether something works for 10 years, because you won't have time for that, but you have time to simulate that environment, for example for 10 years. Like special chambers that accelerate this process. So you test this proof of concept at a basic level. These tests are possible within this proof of concept. Because you still have a lot of cables and a lot of different mechanical things on your table. For example, you want to test whether it can be used at lower temperatures, for example minus 10 degrees.

Wojciech Hołysz: Degrees Celsius.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Celsius, yes. And you can't just put the things that you have open into that environment, because you'll find out pretty easily that it won't work. You have to build another level of prototype that's prepared for that test.

Wojciech Hołysz: So can we say that when you apply these stages, I mean stage three and stage four of TRL 2 product development, it will be proof of concept and testing it with the product, which may even include interviews with potential customers or users to see if this device can be useful for them?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, you can start with that. It's really risky from an investor's perspective. Because when you invest money in research at that level, of course the risk is in developing a product that is...

Wojciech Hołysz: Yes, there is a risk that has existed from the very beginning.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. But if you ask people about proof of concept, you have to know how to ask questions to get the right answers. Because if you ask questions about it, do you like it?

Wojciech Hołysz: A completely different topic for us is the way of conducting such interviews and research.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: So you have to ask more questions about usability, or about the functionality needed, or about the need. So you can test it at the proof of concept stage. But it's quite difficult, because people tend to look at it as if it's a finished idea. And you have to make sure that they understand that it's not a finished idea, it's just the beginning of the journey.

Wojciech Hołysz: So what happens after the fourth level, when the technology leaves the lab or we have a proven product concept that we think is buildable, will work and people will probably want to buy or use it? What is the fifth level?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Level five is basically taking the thing out of the lab.

Wojciech Hołysz: So do the same thing, but outside a controlled environment?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yeah, so you learned how to control the local environment for this device or for this idea, because an example in the real world, the material world, would be 3D printing from metal powder. So you have this technology that you can 3D print in an environment where the printer is placed, I don't know, maybe an argon chamber, and you have this clean space where you don't have any problems in the atmosphere, in the pressure, in all the different aspects.

Wojciech Hołysz: Very controlled environment.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, very controlled environment. And now you have to put this 3D printer in a regular space where only people work.

Wojciech Hołysz: And this should work too.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: And that should work too. Now you have a whole bunch of other problems to solve. Because you have...

Wojciech Hołysz: So you are no longer just fighting with basic conceptual challenges, but probably also with environmental and user challenges.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. But when it comes to technology, it's usually a small modification of the whole system that you've already designed. But that small modification can take a long time. Because when you take a device or an idea, a proof of concept, a first prototype, etc. out of the lab, there's a moment when you don't know what you don't know. You have to figure out what the problem is going to be. You can't anticipate all the problems that you're going to face. So that's something that when you take an idea out of the lab, you have to spend more time developing that idea outside of that safe environment.

Wojciech Hołysz: And when it comes to product design, does this mean testing the prototype with users – how does this translate into product development?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. Maybe it's testing with users. Maybe it's testing the initial concepts of some specific requirements for the device. Maybe something that's good to describe is waterproof. Because when you have a device, a prototype that you want to be waterproof, you can test it in the lab. Let's compare it to this NASA environment in product development. You can have a lab environment, like standing water standing on a table in a bowl. And you put your first prototype on TRL number four, in this bow and you test it for some time. You take it out and you check if it leaks, if it's OK, you can assume that it will work outside, but that's just an assumption. Because taking it outside causes some changes. For example, you want to put this little thing that you've already designed into the sea. And now you have salt, you have moving water. Because water is flowing in your device. Of course, you can control your device in this lab environment, but it's not the same. The temperature of the water is different. The temperature changes because there are temperature gradients in the water. So this part is once a little bit bigger. It's a microscopic change. It could be bigger, it could be smaller. And here it's waterproof, here it's not

Wojciech Hołysz: It contracts and expands, and the pressure can change.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: So there are many different little things that can affect...

Wojciech Hołysz: Generally speaking, this would mean that we repeat the same types of laboratory tests, but outside the laboratory, often in conditions that would be very difficult to perform in the laboratory or would simply not make economic sense and need to be thoroughly tested in real-world conditions or with real users.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Exactly. So when you finish these tests, you can say that you are on TRL number five, because you are not on a specific TRL until you reach all...

Wojciech Holysz: Requirements.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Requirements for this TRL.

Wojciech Hołysz: This is a party for making money.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. This is a lot to earn.

Wojciech Hołysz: Yes. Then we move on to TRL six with lab, environmental and user testing. What's next?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: The next thing is difficult to understand in the context of the product. Because in TRL number five we have validation of components in the appropriate environment, and in TRL number six it is a demonstration of the system or subsystem and the appropriate environment.

Wojciech Hołysz: So in the case of product development, including TRL five and six?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. We can think about managing this because we can't think about a prototype without all the parts assembled together. But we can understand it this way. For example, we have one project that has to be IP 54 compliant. So we had to make sure that all the spaces between the different parts have to be IP 54 compliant. When we tried to test the first prototype for this IP rating, it was difficult because we didn't know where the leak was because we had two spaces. We had one space under the button of the device and one space between the half of the housing. And we didn't know where the leak was actually happening because of course it was leaking, like in the first prototype. So we jumped into our software and created different kinds of prototypes to test different parts of the ceiling. So one prototype tested just the housing itself, the two halves of the housing. So the button that was on the top was connected to the top housing, so we only had one space to test. So this prototype was testing a part or a component. And the second prototype tested only the button, how it works, and when we talk about TRL number six, we have to combine it. So we have to test both the button and the housing. If it meets our standards or our needs or IP rating, then we are at TRL number six. We have a system.

Wojciech Hołysz: So it can be directly applied, for example a product would consist of several important parts integrated in a system, like you have to test, I don't know, a part of a welding machine that's on the movement arm, for example. You have to test several components separately and then test them together in a system, in a sense.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes.

Wojciech Hołysz: So number five is testing the component. Level six is testing this and other components in the system. So this will be the whole device in our case. And we're approaching the end of the scale. So what would be level seven?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: I will come back to this, but I would like to add that in our understanding sometimes system and subsystem can also be understood as assembly and subassembly. Because we are 99% in the material world, so we talk about products, physical ones. So we talk and we talk about assemblies. So it is a component or a part, and then testing the component or the whole assembly. But going back to the scale, we have level seven and now the problem arises, because we have a prototype of the system in a space environment. So testing in a space environment.

Wojciech Hołysz: So it would probably be testing a prototype that is no longer a proof of concept, no longer a raw version of an idea, but something much closer to a final product and testing it again in a real environment with users. Would that be more or less...

Mikołaj Wiewióra: We can insert or remove the word space and insert people into it. Because people...

Wojciech Hołysz: They are as deadly as space.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: I didn't want to say this, but people are the best judges of quality, especially if you design for children. Children are the best destroyers in the world. So when you give them something that you designed for them, if it's destroyed within 10 minutes, it's not a toy that you want to make.

Wojciech Hołysz: I think children should become the next Marvel villains.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Some kind. We can take out the word "space" and put it in the space "people".

Wojciech Hołysz: Basically it seems natural, but let's be honest: the further we are in the scale, the more detailed the adjustments we make, at least in the technology itself, because it seems to be more about usability. Will it stand the test of time and constant use, for example after we have something that we can test with end users in larger groups at level seven, what would level eight be? Because it seems like we're almost there.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. It seems like we're almost there, but there's still a lot to do. At every stage, at every level, you can learn something new. Talking about the life cycle of the product, talking about the materials that we use, sometimes we use materials that are just a representation of the materials that will be used. So sometimes it depends. It doesn't have to happen all the time. But it does happen that you have to make a prototype from materials that will be the final materials. So you still don't have the tools. You still don't have all these things around production, but you have to have a product, a prototype that is made of the same materials. So you can say that it's something that has already been proven to behave the way you expect it to in these materials that you're using. You can't test materials for durability without using the same materials. If you build a car out of clay or a body out of clay, you won't be able to make it as thin as sheet metal. And still having the form, you have to jump into the right technology, if you're building a prototype of a cup, you can't make it out of paper without glue or something to make it waterproof. It's just going to be destroyed in a matter of minutes. And of course, people like the form, people like the weight, which can be a problem because paper is quite, quite light. And if you want to make sure that people still like it, if it's heavier, for example, you have to make it out of a material that allows you to test that little particle, like a weight.

Wojciech Hołysz: So level eight is manufacturing, basically getting as close to the final product as possible, without the assembly line, the production line and all the necessary tooling, right?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes.

Wojciech Hołysz: So you could say that at the end of the eighth level you have a golden sample?

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes, we can say that, but let's remember that we reached this level only after completing these tests.

Wojciech Hołysz: Sure. So at the end of this process you can say that you have it and you are at level eight.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. We are at level eight. So if we talk about TRL, we still have one step ahead. And this step, in this scale, is written as an actual flight of the system proven by successful mission operations. Which is still a part to understand at the stages of product development, but we can call it for example MVP. So we have a minimum viable product, or we can also understand it as a batch of prototypes that we send to our future customers for further testing.

Wojciech Hołysz: But these are still prototypes that you are talking about, after reaching the eighth level, or maybe...

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yeah, after reaching level eight, in an ideal world, that's how Kickstarter wanted to work. So people would have ideas, share them early on because they didn't know how much demand there was for their idea. And Kickstarter was supposed to be a part of making that idea a reality. So they wanted people who had come up with something or who thought their idea might be a good idea to bring to market. So they wanted to test it out and they had some Barkers. Those Barkers were privileged people who had the first batch of products so they could test it out and then spread the word about that product. That's how a lot of YouTubers work. That's how a lot of Instagrammers work. They're working on future products that are going to be launched. And when we hear about that, there's usually some kind of disclosure in those videos or threads. Like, OK, this is just a sample. This is not a production-ready product. So people want to know about the product before it's produced. That's good for the manufacturer or the creator of the idea. And good for the customers because customers don't want to buy something that hasn't been tested yet. Of course, there are early adopters who buy everything new, but that's not the masses. It's hundreds or thousands of people in a given market who want to test something, even if it doesn't work perfectly. But if we're talking about a product that needs to be manufactured, we need to make sure that it's, as they say, tested on the fly.

Wojciech Hołysz: If I understand correctly. Then, when we reach this level, the final level of the TRL scale in terms of product development, we have a product that is not yet mass produced. So it's like a small batch of prototypes that have been tested by real users and we have as much confidence as we can that we are ready for mass production. So only after that do we leave the TRL scale and go to manufacturers, think about tooling and other aspects.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. Of course we can think about tooling a little bit earlier, when we have TRL number eight, for example, and after we finish TRL number nine, we can adjust the tooling. We can adjust the injection molding process, for example, because we know that we have a certain quality of our product parts. Just an example. People tend to dislike this surface finish that we have on a specific part, because they say that it is not fingerprint-resistant. Maybe it is difficult to clean something that is...

Wojciech Hołysz: We haven't thought of anything like that.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: We didn't think about that, or we did think about that, but it doesn't work in the real world. If you think about a cell phone, for example, all the manufacturers want phones to be beautiful and slim. Neat-looking pieces of technology, and we still have to put them in rubber cases. Because that's what we want. We want to make sure that when the phone falls, it's still a phone, not a piece of technology that doesn't work for you. So people are okay with the beauty of the phone being hidden. And for some reason, we still buy these two things separately, and there's no one who's going to give you a phone in a case, in one product. Because it's called a rugged phone, and it's ugly. And people don't like ugly things when they buy premium products. They want to think that they have something beautiful, but still covered.

Wojciech Hołysz: Yeah. So I think that's it, because level nine is the last one. So from the basic concept of just thinking, all the way to having a tested, proven prototype with end users in a real environment, with all the tweaks you can imagine, when you're ready to basically go to the manufacturer and work on your production line. At first, it seemed quite confusing, especially translating technology readiness into product development or product readiness. But as we said from the very first level, just thinking about the possibility, all the way to having a prototype that's tested in every possible way with end users and the final environment and basically ready to just go to the manufacturer to get the production line ready. That's the TRL and that's how we use it in the design and engineering world, to communicate with institutions and customers, to, as we said, manage expectations, but also get a solid foundation of what we fundamentally understand.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Yes. Going back to the basics, the TRL scale was intended for things of high complexity that are manufactured on a small scale, on a small scale. So as we understand it, the products are not as complex as space technologies, but they are manufactured on a larger scale.

Wojciech Hołysz: You mean the volume.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Or volume, yes. So we understand the TRL scale as design studios and institutions like R&D centers, some kind of prototyping stages. We can't say that level nine is a product ready for market launch within the entire tool supply, manufacturers, etc. So what you said is true, but I wanted to mention or add this information to complete this definition.

Wojciech Hołysz: Well, I hope that if anyone had any doubts about the TRL scale or was just curious, I hope that this conversation helped someone understand it better. It definitely helped me, even though we prepared for this conversation. It was still confusing. But now everything is clear.

Mikołaj Wiewióra: Good to know. Thank you.

 

Mikołaj Wiewióra is a senior designer at Mindsailors. He has extensive experience in leading teams of designers and engineers at all stages of the design process.

 

 

 

 

 

Voytek Holysz is the COO of Mindsailors with 15 years of business experience in the field of B2B creative services, marketing, sales and video production.